I've stumbled across another interesting passage in my reading and thought I would toss it up here for some public reflection. People in every emploi in the Church have debated for centuries about the issue of homosexuality and our appropriate response to it, and I think this guy has something to say worth considering. I don't by any stretch of the imagination agree with everything that he says, but this small bit struck me. This is Willard S. Krabill in Chapter 7 of a book entitled
'Sexuality: God's Gift.'We have not broken fellowship with those whom we disagree on business practices and ethics, on the payment of war taxes, on registration for the draft, on lavish versus simple lifestyles, on the use of alcohol, and on many other issues. Instead, on these issues we keep talking, praying and striving for the will of God.
Althought the issue of homosexuality tends to be diverse, must it be a matter over which we divide our communion? Personally, I hope not. I believe that, mindful of the inexhaustible grace of God, we need to work responsibly on diverse issues and seek God's will in both our lifestyles and our discernment proceses. This will enable us to maintain fellowship with our fellow believers.
I've stumbled across another interesting passage in my reading and thought I would toss it up here for some public reflection. People in every emploi in the Church have debated for centuries about the issue of homosexuality and our appropriate response to it, and I think this guy has something to say worth considering. I don't by any stretch of the imagination agree with everything that he says, but this small bit struck me. This is Willard S. Krabill in Chapter 7 of a book entitled 'Sexuality: God's Gift.'
19 comments:
It is good to see someone put the issue in perspective of other main issues that the church SHOULD be facing and yet chose not to.
You're right...I don't entirely agree with him, but at least when you put the one issue in perspective of so many other sin issues...it helps to shed some light on the true issue which is sin and sin alone.
I actually agree with the entire thing. One of my friends from school mentioned he can't go to a church if he doesn't agree with everything in their belief statement. I really respect his view on things, so it interested me.
My "rubric" of sorts when it comes to theological discussions (practical or applied) is to ask if the topic is something the Bible's about. What I mean is whether or not the Bible really shows me that it'd be interested in the discussion. If not, I usually use that as my que.
So I asked my friend if he's ever noticed the likely disagreements some of the authors in our story would have, and he didn't. Which is OK--it's where he is.
But I believe this quote from the book illudes to that kind of discourse. I just wish it had a cover I wouldn't be embarrassed to have on my shelf.
I do wonder about this question. Not to tangent too much, but why do you think God would be displeased with homosexuality? Is it all about the inability to procreate? If so, it makes us all seem more like baby-factories than humans--responsible for "doing our part" to keep this whole "life on Earth" thing going....
So what is it, at its core, that is "wrong" with homosexuality? Why does scripture disapprove?
-M.
*Scripture
(didn't mean to offend anyone with the lower case there... ;)
Two things
1: James, do you think that the Bible is interested in discussing homosexuality?
2: Michelle, it's an interesting question. I think the clearest picture of God's displeasure (from Romans 1) paints a picture of people taking something that God intended for a sign to point to Him and using it instead to glorify themselves. What do you think about it?
Hey Micah--
I don't know about Romans 1. I read it and read it to Nazia, and I don't think either of us see that it says WHY homosexuality is repulsive (or insert more appropriate word here) to God. It provides an interesting progression of depravity, but to me the question remains. WHY is it "deprave"?
I understand the "because God says so" argument, but sometimes you want more than a "because I said so" justification. WHY is it bad? Because really, to move anywhere with this issue of homosexuality, I think we have to examine this root question...
-M.
I don't know that homosexuality is, but I believe scripture does tell us about healthy relationships and sexual relationships.
And Michelle, that's how I'd approach your question, too. How does scripture illustrate healthy sexual relationships and/or romantic relationships? Anything outside of that would be unhealthy, not limited to homosexuality, pedaphilia, etc. Not that you brought up pedaphilia, but what if I had questions about it, wondering if scripture actually speaks against it?
Just my approach. I would say it's deprave because it's consistently brought up in that light and none other. Your question would still remain about why it's brought up that way, and the only way I would be able to look at it would be to really dig into the healthy descriptions of relationships and do some comparisons.
Same with pedaphilia.
Mish~
This is how I wrap my mind around the Romans 1 passage (and I choose this one because it's the most extensive treatment of homosexual practices that I know about in Scripture, when it's not just listed as something bad to do). Paul's argument seems to be people who have turned their backs on God do these things: "Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. // Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen."
It isn't so much that homosexuality per se is what God is most unhappy with, but a turning from Him (which leads to "[slander, gossip, hate of God, insolence, envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness, covetous and malice]" v. 29-31 Paul seems to spend a considerable chunk of the chapter asserting that homosexuality is idolotry, and the rub is whether or not you can say that was pagan-temple-specific or whether it is a more general condemnation of the acts.
I'm interested, though, about what situations would 'because God said so' be a satisfactory answer, Mish? Also, what does Nazia say about the subject and how does the Qur'an inform her?
James---
I'd say pedophilia and homosexuality are NOT on the same page. I can see why pedophilia is wrong (taking advantage of children, oppressive to those who cannot stand up for themselves, exploiting a child/adult power structure, etc.). Homosexuality between consenting adults must be examined, I believe, recognizing that it doesn't really HURT another person as you woudl argue pedophilia or adultery would. Or is there an argument that it does?
And Micah, I agree with your progression of Romans 1. But we idolize so much (even our spouses at times, I'd wager?). AND, why is a monogomous, homosexual relationship going to be any different in idolotry than a monogomous heterosexual relationship between two consenting adults?
And ultimately, of course, all questions can be answered with the "because I said so" argument from God. I am not in the position to demand, when push comes to shove, more than He is willing to give---though, as I know you know, I do believe you can ask and seek and that He may just surprise you with what He tells you.
But I think the question is an interesting one. Again---WHY is homosexuality bad? WHY would God condemn it?
And is it all about producing babies?
But then why would Paul assert it is better to not marry (if you can)?
Just thoughts...
-M.
P.S. Do you guys want to hang for a bit on Saturday? Ozge should be in town w/me....
P.S. (part 2): I told Nazia you asked a question--she does blog rounds in the evenings and hopefully will be able to respond.
Your question would still remain about why it's brought up that way, and the only way I would be able to look at it would be to really dig into the healthy descriptions of relationships and do some comparisons.
The pedophilia thing was really just an example. Does my approach seem legit? Interpretation is a skill, but not terribly difficult. I just don't think people really have a consistent way of doing it, which muddles it up.
A lot of people come to religous conclusions by interpreting life or their gut responses, but not the Bible. That's what I was hoping to convey.
- First step is to go to the Bible.
- Second is to find out what the Bible addresses or discloses.
Is anamalism good/bad? Homosexuality good/bad? Heterosexuality good/bad? Multiple partners good/bad?
Wrong questions in my opinion. What does scripture disclose AS virtuous? It's just a reoriented approach.
Would you critique that approach?
Hey James--
I think your approach is certainly interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I hear you saying that if you want to know about something (how to live a Godly life), you look for examples in the Bible. If you want to know about justice, you look in the Bible, goodness, peace, righteousness, etc.
Certainly this is admirable. BUT, you can see, I'm sure, how this doesn't actually answer the question of WHY homosexuality is bad. (Which, I believe, was your point). It can be said that Scripture doesn't list it as a virtuous thing, so it's not. OK, but we're chasing our tail a bit, right? We're coming up on a road block and turning to see if we can avoid the road.
BUT, perhaps you could use your method to answer this question. I'd ask you, then, to (using your method) provide a response to why homosexuality is bad. Do you see examples in Scripture that lead you to believe that virtue and justice and peace and goodness and righteousness and, for lack of a more comprehensive term, "holiness" are found to be directly opposed to homosexuality? Maybe that's a new way to approach the question.
But, no, I don't believe that it's a "wrong" question--which is to say, I don't believe you can ask a wrong question (except in bizarre detective movies where an evasive informant tells you "you're asking the wrong question there, Mister"). I would say, first answer the question that is asked and then explain why another question could better get at the "heart" of the issue. Right?
I say, if a question comes up---explore it. THEN look to see if there is another road you'd rather take.
-M.
Hello Micah,
Thank you for inviting me to participate in the discussion; Michelle has been updating me on it sporadically. I find the dialogue to be interesting because the questions and comments that have been surfacing, mirror those that come up in Muslims' discourse on homosexuality. The Qur'an does strictly forbid homosexuality in any form (some verses: “Do you approach males among the worlds, and leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing” (26:165-166). “Do you indeed approach men with your desire instead of women? Rather, you are a people behaving ignorantly” (27:55). A footnote to the former verse asks, are there, out of all of God's creatures, any besides you who commit this unnatural act?
So, the mainstream view is that homosexuality is perceived as an affront to the natural order created by God, is condemned by God, and is therefore, a sin. To indulge in it is to turn away from God.
Coming to Michelle's question, from what I know, there isn't anymore explanation given on why it a sin. I guess you have to believe that whatever God permits is everything good, pure and healthy; and in that same vein, there is wisdom in what He forbids. Though we may not presently comprehend this Wisdom, we can explore it, discuss it, and question it, but in the end – must still abide by it.
Nazia, I'm honored to have your input on the subject. I've heard a lot of positively glowing things about you from Michelle, and I'm very glad to have your input on the subject.
I'm curious on what the Muslim debates hinges over homosexuality. In the Christian debate, as I alluded to in one of my earlier comments, the strongest contention I have heard is the Bible says nothing about monogamous homosexual relationships; Biblical passages are understood to be adressing temple prostitution (which is sanctioned for obvious reasons) but should not be stretched to condemn comitted, loving expressions of homosexuality. Is this similar?
The debate over 'natural order' is also interesting, how do yall (everyone) respond to that? How do you respond to people who tell you that they 'were born this way?' That they would never choose to be the way they are, but they can't deny it?
Hey Michelle
Maybe not wrong questions (because I don't want to accidently come across as saying there's only a narrow spectrum of things we can get out of Scripture), but broken questions. Questions that don't work with what the Bible's trying to do. I'm not saying your question here, but broadly speaking. My concern really is the way we try to learn from scripture by using it as a cross-reference or topical index.
If we ask scripture about animalism and it says nothing in response, are we free to make love to a dog? If there's silence on something, then what?
I would say, first answer the question that is asked and then explain why another question could better get at the "heart" of the issue. Right?
I just think it should be the other way around because after we've read what scripture does have to say (most sermons and theologians model this very poorly), we can make informed inferences about the things it doesn't. For the logic issue above, but also because who's mind is transforming and renewing ours (Romans 12:2)?
I don't think scripture has a lot to say about homosexuality one way or another fwiw...
Dear Micah,
Thank you for your response. I apologize for the delay in getting back to you.
You raise many important and pertinent questions on the issue of homosexuality and Islam. As in Christianity - I am assuming - there are no clear-cut answers to these queries. Therefore, I will have to mull over my own response, and make sure that I am representing Islam in an accurate and fair way. So, though I haven't 'honored' your blog a second time as yet, I do promise to get back to you soon.
:)
Happy Easter!
Nazia
I think you and Christy should start posting comments on pols150.blogspot.com.
But that's just my opinion. :)
Is that legal, Mish? I thought about it, but then I didn't wanna get all up in yalls business. But since there's been an invite . . .
Hey, sorry I haven't posted in a while, either, everyone. Once this week is over, I'll be back in business. I've been saving up . . .
Well I can ask the Prof. for permission--- :)
Yes, of course it's legal. On Thursdays I pick out a few of their comments and we talk about them as a class, so I bet you guys would fuel great discussion. And, I already had a student ask last week if her friend could post on it (or something to that nature), and I said heck yes (or something to that nature), assuming they intended to be insightful. :)
Plus, since there are 45 students enrolled and not all the students actually DO their work, that means there's plenty of space for your comments and nobody will even know its in excess of the student count. Just let me know your pen name (if you use one), so I'm not attempting to connect it w/ a student, etc.
Looking forward to the new posts... Hope you all (and Reba) are well--- ;)
-M.
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